Full transcript:
Michał Bzowy: Hi. Welcome to the Przelewy24 channel, a place where we talk about how to effectively grow your business and sales online. In today's episode, we will focus on the holy grail of e-commerce, which is increasing conversion. How to rebuild a store? Together with my guest, we will try to answer these questions: how to optimize a store, what tools and techniques to use to increase sales, and what mistakes to avoid? Let's start with a brief introduction. My name is Michał Bzowy. For 20 years, I have been involved in the e-commerce and online payments industry. Currently, I am the IT head at the company behind the Przelewy24 system, which is the largest payment operator in Poland. My guest is Radek Toczek, CEO of Grow Ruck, a company specializing in Magento implementations, for years an expert in the industry, both in implementations and sales optimization.
Radek Toczek: Hello. For almost a dozen years, we have been involved in the e-commerce industry. Since 2017, under the Grow Ruck brand. So we will try to discuss some interesting examples today. We will try to make this conversation as substantive as possible, so let's move straight to the first point of our conversation.
Michał Bzowy: If we go through the sales process, the first thing we encounter is the product card. How to prepare a product card so that it is effective? Effective, I mean in the context that when I shop, I often compare different offers in different stores. And I am willing to pay more in a store that has a well-prepared product card, from which I learn a lot, than in a store that has written literally two sentences about a product, not giving, I don't know, the dimensions of the furniture, or the size of the clothing, just because it's a few zlotys cheaper. So how do you think the preparation of content on the product card looks like? What is its weight in the entire sales process?
Radek Toczek: Yes. The product page, as the name suggests, must tell you what the product is, how much it costs, and an additional element is to convince the customer why they should buy it from us. A very important aspect, looking at the product page, is to maintain a layout that the customer knows. Of course, there may be some deviations, but we are not making a revolution. The customer is used to there being some specific title that actually describes what someone is buying. The title may have some additions, such as, I don't know, "waterproof jacket," not necessarily just the brand and the proper name of the jacket. It is important that the price is clearly shown. If it is a configurable product, the price should be under the configuration, so that the customer, when Browse the product page, is somewhat reading a story about the product. That is, what it is called, how I can configure it, how much it costs, whether it is in stock. How does it look? Immediately after loading the page, without scaling, photos must be visible. Photos, of course, of very good quality. Recently, for example, I was looking for a backpack and came across our strongman's website, I went to the product page, and there was a photo taken with a phone and shown on the strongman, holding a backpack, and the quality could be described as pixelation. Although it is known that it is some good quality backpack, but the photos no longer show it.
Michał Bzowy: Such an example of unused potential, clearly an example of unused potential.
Radek Toczek: That's why it's very important that these photos are of good quality, from different angles, preferably not just one, preferably some video. Here, you also need to be a little careful and consider whether we want the video to be displayed on the page, or if we redirect, for example, to YouTube or another popular platform. Here we must be careful that the client returns, so this is also an important aspect. Although video is the best way to show a product, if the client leaves our page and does not return because they have several other tabs open with a similar product, then it's a problem. Returning to the content, in addition to the price, availability, of course, a clear Call to Action is very important, i.e., the add to cart button. And among the elements that the client should see very quickly on the page, there is also a short description, which is not supposed to be technical, but rather an encouragement to familiarize oneself with the offer. You can play on emotions a little. And once the client sees these elements and they encourage them to learn the details, then we show the client the description, but we avoid a wall of text, because then a mechanism kicks in that "I don't feel like reading this." This text should be skillfully distributed and oscillate, showing the most important parameters, such as furniture dimensions, or a size chart. Everything should rather be in the form of this story, to convince the client. Once the client has familiarized themselves with this page, with the description, it is worth then serving them such social proof, i.e., opinions. It is best if these are opinions from some external system, because people do not necessarily trust opinions that are generated in the system in which it is sold. So this is a very important element, many people base their final decision whether to buy or not, precisely on opinions. Another interesting example – it is not possible to apply it everywhere – but it is such social proof, where we display, for example, photos from Instagram of clients who bought our product, based on some hashtag. Yes, it worked very well for our client, CD Projekt, where a specific hashtag was agreed upon: "post this, maybe you'll end up on our page." Photos were loading, so it was a nice effect. It's not possible to put it everywhere, but if we want to build, we already have some brand built, clients are connected with this brand, it is worth using something like this. Then the next part of the page is to supplement the offer, i.e., either some upsell, or recommended products. And here it all depends on what product we are selling. Can you upsell, can you add, can you show complementary products? Is it worth showing products that the client has already visited? It all depends on what the product is, at what stage, and how long the client has been Browse the page, for example. It is also worth selling a lot of information, but stopping at this point, because showing the product itself as one product is again the same topic you mentioned, i.e., not using the potential that lies there, right? Because if we have a product, it just begs for something underneath that matches it. It's simpler, for example, with clothes, where we have ready-made sets of clothes, the model is dressed from head to toe, and we are on the product card. Why not show him those pants, those shoes, what matches the set? I often use this, because instead of wondering what goes with what, I have a ready set and I can choose the right clothes. But it's not just clothes, because we can do the same with furniture: if you buy a shelf, buy a chest of drawers with it; if you buy a computer, buy a cable or some insurance. So this additional upsell on this page is really a powerful tool that cannot be said to be common. It is implemented, but it is not...
Michał Bzowy: You can easily convert it to an increase...
Radek Toczek: It's easy to turn on, but it's a big challenge to do it well, so as not to show products that theoretically fit, but in reality no one would choose them for the product they are currently Browse. For example, someone is Browse a high-end phone, and we show them the cheapest cables, when they are looking for quality, for example. Yes, here you need to choose appropriate, for example, chargers, cases, or other things. It all has to work together, and someone has to do it, someone has to think about it, right? Because in a small shop it's easier, because we are able to control it. If we already have several thousand products in stock, then there are dedicated positions that deal with this.
Michał Bzowy: Yes, now is the age of AI, so I think AI will help us a bit here, especially, for example, in generating descriptions. So that these descriptions are coherent and we don't really have to strain ourselves with what you said, to lightly incorporate emotions into the description. Well, here AI can help us with that. I also often see that currently, precisely so as not to overwhelm with a wall of text, but on the other hand, to provide the customer with the right amount of data, some description preview appears, and then you have "more," right? You go in somewhere, at the bottom it says "more."
Radek Toczek: Well, that works, for example. Because, you know, if you buy shoelaces for 15 PLN, the description can be short: length, color, and I don't know what else. Maybe emotions related to shoelaces...
Michał Bzowy: ...And it's not always shown, even that length. I was looking for it once and...
Radek Toczek: Exactly. And find. But if I buy a TV for 10,000, then I would like to see everything, right? And at this moment, that wall of text will kill me, but if I read what resolution it has, basic parameters, size, resolution, basic parameters, and I have more at the bottom, it doesn't bother me. I'll get to it, because I'm still hungry for that knowledge to make an informed decision. So it also depends on what product we are promoting. And here I think it's also worth emphasizing what you said at the very beginning, this is already such a process that it is standardized. And there's no need to reinvent the wheel here, because introducing too many experiments at the purchase stage... This will permeate our entire conversation, because we can actually say that about every step. It's more evolution than revolution. So there will be minor changes, but rather let's avoid inventing the entire product card from scratch, because someone will come up with it, have a super vision and move the button, I don't know, invent a round button, a hidden button somewhere, and throw in some large sound-dampening, sliding image. People know that if you have a product, on the right side you have an "add to cart" button. They know what to expect, let's not change it too radically, because we may face a drop in conversion, so you have to be very careful about that.
Michał Bzowy: We can play with A/B tests and check what works and what doesn't.
Radek Toczek: But if we make a complete revolution, it probably won't work. Yes, and here's a hint – professionals probably already know this, but when creating descriptions, we also look at SEO, that is, what keywords to smuggle in there, both in the product name and in the product description. Because we want Google to display us in the right place and not disappear in the flood of other offers, right? It's not just a word salad that is supposed to fill the page, but it must be well-thought-out content that will allow us to properly promote ourselves in search engines. Especially if we sell products that are available in many stores. Because if we are a brand that sells its products on its own website and everyone knows they will go there, then there is no such problem. It's worse when it's the other way around, you can find many identical products on different pages. So the better we have it organized, the better categorized, the easier it is for us to present it to the customer later, to make a comparison. And that also convinces, because the customer doesn't have to frustratedly browse long descriptions, but if they want to compare two or three products that appeared in the upsell, for example, they can do it easily and won't leave our page.
Michał Bzowy: Okay. We already have the product, we see it, we've read it, it interested us. Added to the cart. What to watch out for in the cart? What to do well, and what to avoid?
Radek Toczek: We definitely need to pay attention to simplicity. The customer already knows what they want to buy. The customer must know what they are buying, and we must present it to them, assure them that what they added to the cart is actually what they want to buy. We need to clearly show them a thumbnail, all the parameters they configured, the price. We also need to show them the shipping price, if possible, so that they see the entire amount. And in the cart, transparency matters. You have to be very careful with any additions, additional partners.
Michał Bzowy: You can also insert.
Radek Toczek: You can insert, but it really has to be done very skillfully, because the customer can abandon the cart. And we don't want that. If they abandon it, add it to the cart, that's great. It's worse if they abandon it and don't come back. That's right.
Michał Bzowy: What product would be an ideal cart?
Radek Toczek: An ideal cart, as I said, is simple, showing all the parameters that are in the product. Clearly showing buttons that redirect to placing an order, or if we already have one-click, that is, we buy immediately. If we have such an option, then also immediately showing that button there, to shorten the path to the final purchase.
Michał Bzowy: Yes, a good example here is, for example, the use of Apple Pay, Google Pay, which can eliminate the need to enter an address and the entire checkout process from the purchase path, because it can be embedded even on the product card, but also in the cart in various ways. That is, by using the functionality of Apple Pay, we can retrieve the address data saved by the user from Apple Pay, in order to shorten this step of filling out the entire form.
Radek Toczek: Yes, and that's a big plus on mobile. We don't have to fill it out, we can quickly use Google Pay, Apple Pay and complete the payment. Another important element to show in the cart are additional information, such as: when will the delivery be, for example? If we can determine that. If we have free delivery from X zlotys, it's also worth showing how much is still missing from the cart. Here, upsell can come in and suggest sensible products that will make free delivery a reality. It's also worth showing, of course, that this cart is secure, that is, all the logos of well-known payment methods or SSL, that is, for example, Przelewy24. The fact that we seamlessly transfer to the checkout page.
Michał Bzowy: And I have a question, I'm not talking specifically about the cart, but for example about a mini cart. Some small logos, to show that it will be processed in a moment by trusted providers, that everything is secure and then on the checkout we can expose it more. And we're talking about this upsell, so I'm curious, since you specialize in Magento, are there already modules using AI, for example, for this upsell, for preparing, promoting offers, for matching the cart content with potential additional products, about which it's hard to predict everything, right? It's hard to predict everything the customer might put in the cart, because they might put in soap and jam, and now what else can you advise them?
Radek Toczek: Yes, I don't know, a spoon or a knife, for example.
Michał Bzowy: For example, yes. And are there already any modules that use the potential of AI, even simple analytical algorithms, that could match, suggest to the user what else would be worth adding?
Radek Toczek: Extending Magento's functionality, I haven't encountered any such. I would only see such an option in companies that deal with showing personalization of such product displays, and I think they will also partly base this personalization on AI in the near future. So for now, there aren't any, but I think it's only a matter of time before they appear.
Michał Bzowy: I'll also be interested in that. We can, we will provide such a module, because in the near future we will also be implementing AI solutions for one of our clients, not necessarily extending Magento, but its additional functions. But yes, there is a chance that it will be created then. These are search engines, right, recommendation search engines. I don't know, some rescue systems for the client, to tickle them there even more. Or maybe you would buy this too? After-sales. Well, all of this is an area where AI fits perfectly and can be harnessed instead of hiring people and generating additional positions, these processes can be automated.
Radek Toczek: Exactly.
Michał Bzowy: And now we smoothly move to the checkout. Checkout, that is the page where, after accepting the cart, we start filling in, preparing to place an order. Malicious people say that checkout is the place where most customers disappear and it is the place where the most spectacular failures occur when it comes to implementations. Tell me, how to save conversion here and what to avoid? What obvious options to add so that this person, again, we return to the point we were talking about, not to reinvent the wheel, that is, so that the customer feels at home in this store and knows this store, even though they are shopping for the first time, for example, but already knows how to navigate it, because these experiences are shared between different systems.
Radek Toczek: Everything boils down to a common denominator, which is the more we simplify the path for the customer, the more we do for the customer, the faster they will go to the last stage, which is clicking "pay" and redirecting to the payment gateway. We can do this in many ways. For example, after entering an email, if someone writes that they already have an account, automatically display the login options. Once they log in, then immediately based on, if they have made any purchases, they have a saved address, then the address can already be selected, the last shipping method can also be selected, and the default payment method can also be selected, as Allegro does, for example. So here we can bring the customer, after logging in, to one click and placing an order. What you also need to pay attention to is to clearly show the customer what they have selected, because in my opinion, it doesn't look good on Allegro, because I have repeatedly been caught out by ordering to the wrong parcel locker or choosing the wrong payment method. I clicked too quickly, it wasn't visible enough, so here I would look for such improvements to show it nicely to the customer. We can also improve it depending on what purchases the customer makes. Because if the customer buys impulsively, then if we give them a one-step checkout and show them everything, make them click, meaning we enable them to click "pay," yes, because everything will already be filled in, then we have, then they will make that purchase quite quickly. Yes, but if the customer buys, I don't know, a computer for PLN 10,000, then they will probably want to think about it, go through one or two additional stages, enter, I don't know, invoice data, make sure that what they are filling in is invoice data, not shipping data. And here you also need to distinguish which checkout will best suit which type of customer. If the customer is not logged in, then the address form must collect the required information, communicate errors as quickly as possible, that is, preferably immediately after entering, fill in the data, right? Those that can be, that is, I don't know, after entering the city, fill in the postal code, after entering the postal code, fill in the city. If we provide a phone number, then it should be known that this number has some structure, right? The same with the NIP, the same. You can also play with the address and do it so that the customer knows what they are filling in, and after saving this address, show it in a form that the customer is used to, for example on postal shipments, show them that it is filled in correctly. I often, when I use Pyszne.pl, for example, I often ran into the problem that I had the number entered in one address, and not in the other. And that address was already selected and my number was entered, but it wasn't displayed. I always had to go in, click, check if the building number was there, if the apartment number was also entered or not. It's enough to show it well. It's really just adding an icon and showing a slash and the apartment number, and I don't know why Pyszne does it cheaper.
Michał Bzowy: It's very important to constantly display the collected information during the purchase process until the very point of clicking "buy," so that the paying customer, especially as you say, for high-value purchases, I want to be sure that everything has been filled in correctly along the way, and this is actually both the effort to prepare, that even if I have already filled in the address, I still see that address one step before "pay," right? So that the accumulated data, whether it's the address, the delivery method, or the payment method, is visible until the very end. What you said about Allegro surprised me, because I perceive Allegro a bit differently. They actually have, I even thought of saying, a craze for this UX, this simplification, shortening the path. Maybe this is a side effect, what you're saying, that they are trying so hard to shorten this process to payment, meaning to purchase, so that you practically don't have to think about anything, just press that "buy" button. We are strongly integrated with Przelewy24 there and we also know from our cooperation how it works and what details were taken care of to make this process as effective and converting as possible. Maybe it's actually worth giving feedback that something is still missing. However, yes, I totally bought it, but it actually surprised me that somewhere, well, I didn't do it fully consciously, let's put it that way. Maybe that was also the goal, to buy quickly. I recently accidentally ordered some strapping tapes on another platform, because I had added them to the cart once and just didn't assume that the cart... Well, 7 PLN. It didn't cost me much. Still at this checkout, because it's a very important process. I think, and it seems to me, that when we shop often, we have various solutions that are proposed. Personally, I really appreciate those where I have few details at the beginning, and then I go in and, for example, if I want to buy, I don't have to provide my address, separately the delivery address, but there is a checkbox checked by default that the delivery address is the same, or the invoice address is the same. If I have payment methods, there are usually two or three that are highlighted and if I want more, I click "more." If the same with deliveries, yes, stores usually offer me the most frequently chosen or promoted delivery methods. More, I click "more," I go further. This is often the case with parcel lockers, so paradoxically I have some, but I can dig around somewhere and choose that parcel locker. So it's not worth overwhelming the user, because checkout can really be powerful. If we collect all these elements, and then add, God forbid, some insurance, and other things that can be added, you can really complicate this process a lot, and the user needs to be given it in a simple way. Because the goal is for the user to pay at the end, right?
Radek Toczek: Yes. So that's why this summary is very important, and clearly showing what will still be filled in, what has already been filled in, what products are in the cart. So that's super important. Going back to the cart, it's also very important to hide, or not show directly, the field for promotions, for entering promotional codes, because if someone sees that they can enter one, a light immediately goes on: "Am I cheating myself?" So I leave the page, look for whether I can enter a code, and then the shopping takes longer, and in the end, someone might not come back. So if we already have such a place, it should rather be expandable and not so much hidden, but only after clicking do we show the field, because the very effect of seeing the field can already cause the customer to leave our page and ultimately make a purchase from a competitor.
Michał Bzowy: We have to talk about payments. What role do payments play?
Radek Toczek: Yes, because for years we have been building awareness among clients, among our partners, but not only partners, also among payers, that stores serviced by Przelewy24 are stores you can trust. From the very beginning, since I've been with the company, actually since 2004, we've had a low risk appetite, so when selecting the portfolio of our partners to whom we offer our services, we make sure that these are verified companies. We do full KYC at the beginning, we test them with MLO, because we check regularly. So the presence of Przelewy24 was such a side effect that I actually noticed after a few years of working that people started telling me that "when I shop online, I look for Przelewy24 because I know that store is verified." So this part about building trust through selecting appropriate service providers is very important from the payer's perspective.
Michał Bzowy: Exactly. The payer, also the supplier, in terms of shipping, it's also important that the customer has a choice, that it's also important that these payments are clear, so that there's no overload. As you mentioned, to show the most important or most popular methods, and if someone wants more, they can click "more." This is very important, because such an overload later causes the customer to have to think, and we don't want that. Rather, the customer should be guided by us, not invent solutions that we wouldn't necessarily want. Do customers still look at something like this? Because it used to be very important. We had, as I call it, the "Wild West of Polish e-commerce," where there were many dishonest sellers and it was hard to recognize who could be trusted. At that time, we also conducted this educational activity, but there are also many different types of certifications, such as "safe store," "safe shopping," these types of certificates. Do you still think that these certificates have an impact and customers, when shopping, look at what trusted icons from third parties are displayed there? What is the weight of this element?
Radek Toczek: I mean, there certainly is some, I wouldn't overestimate it. I would rather rely on store reviews and real reviews displayed somewhere on the side: what is the store's rating, how many reviews there are. This builds more, meaning it builds much greater trust, because we know that several dozen, or several thousand people have bought, left a review, so the store actually has a rating of 4.7, 4.8 out of 5. Well, then that builds such trust. I know that there are certainly some people who are skeptical about such things as "best company" or something, because it's sometimes hard to verify, and if someone is dishonest, they can put such an icon and still be the best seller, right? Does anyone verify this? There are certainly such customers, but I think reviews will do a better job.
Michał Bzowy: Okay, something else that is less noticeable from a business perspective, but also important, is the performance of the store itself, technical performance. In your experience? How much patience does a customer have, how long will they wait for the page to load and access the data they are interested in, and after what time will they simply switch to the competition?
Radek Toczek: Performance is the most important thing, it's the foundation, really, because if the store loads for several, a dozen seconds, every page, then only those who, I don't know, an example could be selling tickets for Podsiadło's concert, that people will wait anyway and not click. And if we are actually talking about less known e-commerce, then this page must load quickly and there cannot be delays, because even the best UX with slow page loading will not help. Especially somewhere on the phone, where you can leave the page with one swipe of your finger and never come back. So this is such a basic thing, it's very important and I hope it will also resonate, without it it's hard to sell, really. Well, if everything loaded slowly, then customers would certainly...
Michał Bzowy: Maybe a less technical aspect. Because it is indeed very important technically, especially during sales peaks, right? Because we have different periods throughout the year, and there are periods, well, it's also connected with industries. We observe this very closely as Przelewy24. We are a kind of information exchange point, you could say, a hub through which sales waves pass throughout the year: from Christmas fever, through summer sales, Black Monday, to various events, as you mentioned Podsiadło. That was also, by the way, there was a battle between Podsiadło and Taylor Swift, and Podsiadło won in terms of the number of entries per second during ticket sales, that was in 2023, when they were selling those tickets. Last year there were concerts. So this performance is important, to be prepared not only for everyday traffic, but to prepare for these various Black Fridays, Black Weeks. In Poland, fortunately, it is fortunate, because from the e-commerce point of view, extending Black Friday to a month, as it really looks in Poland, allows for better handling of this traffic. Yes, because I remember the promotion of iPhones for one zloty, which would kill any system and actually did kill them, so here we also suggest avoiding such promotions. However, extended promotions are definitely welcome and you can benefit from them, but you have to be prepared for it in terms of traffic. A failure at such a moment hurts the most.
Radek Toczek: Unfortunately, it's the most visible, yes.
Michał Bzowy: It's the most costly not only from the point of view of what wasn't sold, but also from the point of view of all marketing actions. Yes, because if the store can't handle it, then...
Radek Toczek: Exactly.
Michał Bzowy: That's the problem. I also, when we hire new people, I try to illustrate the responsibility that rests on us and I show that imagine that I didn't work for a minute, I was living through the window and you have a full parking lot. Several thousand people who were waiting and are dissatisfied. And that's such a burden on e-commerce, on these platforms that sell a lot and have to handle it in a short time.
Radek Toczek: Exactly.
Michał Bzowy: One more topic that we have left, actually, and it's a bit less technical, is the "legal compliance" part, because this is also often something that is underestimated, but customers look at it. That is, a well-prepared regulations, a well-prepared return policy, well-described contact information. The store should also have this to build customer trust and so that the customer doesn't have to look for contact somewhere in case of any problems, but that everything is served on a silver platter. We also have to remember to place it well.
Radek Toczek: Yes, because that's when frustrations arise most quickly, because not only does someone want to return something, but it's also made difficult for them. So yes, it's best if it's automated. Both from the customer's point of view and from the point of view of later handling it. If we have, the more automation we have and the better we do it from the UX side, the less work there will be in the warehouse, in customer service.
Michał Bzowy: And so on. That's right. This is also a topic that can be deepened, because there are ready-made templates for documents, regulations, policies. So this is no longer something that needs to be discovered, there are law firms that specialize in this. It can be well developed, and it is worth developing it well so as not to have problems in the future. It is worth having this return time entered in the regulations. All these basic data should be on top, so that the buyer can see them. It is not obvious. Some treat it a bit carelessly, but...
Radek Toczek: This is probably not a place where you can save money. In my opinion, this is not a place where a "business Janusz" is able to change something, smuggle something in. The regulations clearly define the return period. There is not much room for maneuver here. You can be more pro-customer and extend this period, rather than combining with some hidden deadline or options, hiding the return form, to make it very difficult. And customers are already very aware when it comes to returns, what they can and cannot do.
Michał Bzowy: Now they won't call the seller, they'll call us, right, unfortunately that's how it is. Well, summarizing today's conversation. When it comes to building a store and preparing it for good sales, it's not just the offer we have, but it's also good sales of that offer, and here the whole process we talked about today with Radek, from the beginning, from the product card, which of course we could still talk about search engine optimization, because that's probably a topic for a separate episode, but from the cart, where you should properly display the product, properly place information, photos, companies, reviews, upsell, but also, for example, what we talked about earlier, the installment system, by properly building the cart, which will be intuitive for the customer. Going to the checkout, offering them some limited options, available, a limited range of available options and expanding it as needed, by going to sales. We haven't talked about one element yet, which is quite important, namely purchase without registration. Well, it seems to me that at the moment it is, I probably use it very often, especially when I make spontaneous purchases and need one thing, I use this option, so I also think that this is no longer a question of "whether to have," but "such an option must be had." A trusted payment system that should assure our payer, customer, that we are a reliable store and we work with the best partners. All this comes together. Of course, there are also elements of responsiveness, which, well, there's no question of "whether" at all, it just has to be there, so that the mobile site also looks as it should. All this contributes to making our customer's user experience as good as possible and ultimately buying, clicking "buy." Thank you, Radek, really a lot of knowledge and information, practical examples, that's what we care about most. It was nice to have you and I wish you success too.
Radek Toczek: Thanks, same to you.
Michał Bzowy: That's all for our next episode of our Przelewy24 podcast. I hope it was a valuable dose of information for you. Subscribe to our channel. We will be publishing more episodes and more practical information. We have a lot of material planned regarding various aspects of online sales. So thank you very much for your attention and see you soon.
Radek Toczek: Thanks.
